Look, it doesn’t matter what you want the movement to be about or what you think TERFs are. The reality is that TERF isn’t a self-given label, radical feminist isn’t a self-given label, and more than a few notable individuals in the feminist movement (a movement that, at its core, is about womens’ rights) are misandrist. This is a reality that, no matter how much you pretend is fake, is still real.
And if feminists spend more time denying this reality than actively changing it, the movement itself won’t change, nor will its general perception.
You’re not going to argue equality away by bringing up the worst people you can think of associated with the movement. There is no substance to arguments based on ad hominem character attacks. I don’t care how transphobic someone is, feminism is about equality for women. There is nothing misandrist about wanting to be equal to men in society. And here is a reality check for you, no one needs to be nice, or have a good public perception, to get human rights. Our rights are supposed to be something you get for being human.
Christ can you not understand that most feminists fundamentally disagree with TERFs? I don’t know why you are so insistant to lump them with actual feminist. Maybe consider listening to feminists, like me, instead of perpetually mansplaining about what feminists are.
It’s not a ‘general perception’ that all feminists are TERFs. It’s what your perception and the perceptions of other anti-feminists. Hell most normal men, who are feminists with or without labels, don’t share your perception. You seem to have this warped perception that all feminists are out to get you and hate on men, when the reality is so far from the radicalized scheme that you think it is. People like you perceive the existance of feminism as an attack on you. It’s not. It’s not even about you, because you don’t seem to care about men’s issues either. It’s about everyone else who wants to lift men and women above the patriarchy.
Wow, didn’t take you long to get personal with your replies huh. Keep blaming the terrible image of the feminist movement on ‘misogynists’ all you want, but it’s misandrists, TERFs and other bigots in the movement who give it a bad name, as well as the people who only respond to criticism of the movement itself with deflection, accusations and ad hominem.
Anyway, it’s not like I care anymore what the image of the feminist movement is; I stopped associating with it ages ago. Do with it what you will.
Again, this whole thread was about the image of the movement, and the culpability of misandrist feminists in painting an image of feminists as ‘women who hate men’.
I am the feminist movement. You are speaking it right now. This is the image of feminism. If you don’t like what you see, don’t shuffle around and just admit that you are an anti-feminist.
The feminist movement isn’t some men-hating caricature you see on Fox news. It’s normal people caring about those who suffer from the patriarchy, men and women alike. It’s people over at Men’s Liberation community. It’s donating to the local women’s shelter because over 90% of SA victims are female. It’s donating to men’s suicide prevention charities because over 80% of deaths are from men. It’s understanding that the men’s mental health crisis is a consequence of patriarchal structures. It’s understanding the pervasiveness of systemic oppression on women’s lives. It’s learning to empathize with the different but real struggles that the other genders face.
If you simply ‘don’t care anymore’ because you are concerned about image, that’s not good enough. You should care. And that starts with embracing the idea that feminism isn’t a dirty word, and it’s not defined by extremists. It’s 2023 and it’s what everybody should strive for ffs.
Look, you go ahead and keep on pretending that the feminist movement is perfect and that all the bigots are ‘not true feminists’. Keep acting like feminism is only all the good things, and it wasn’t feminists who had battered men’s shelters shut down, that TERFs aren’t ‘real feminists’. Keep pretending that anyone who criticizes feminism is actually just ‘anti-feminism’. In the end, it won’t change what the image of the movement is, nor will it change the people behind that image.
The reality is that TERF isn’t a self-given label, radical feminist isn’t a self-given label,
You’re right, it’s not a self-given label, and that’s why when people decided that these people are actually not welcomed in feminist spaces, they changed the label to FART (Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes).
Feminism, as defined by the majority of the movement, is about equality and intersectionality. If you hold exclusionary views you’re not part of the movement, you’re only appropriating the word.
Again, that’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t change the reality that ‘FART’ is a joke term used by some feminists; the vast majority still call them TERFs, because the feminist movement has historically cared far more about the issues of biological women.
If anything, it’s the people who call feminism a movement for ‘equality and intersectionality’ who’re appropriating a term for a movement that, at its core, has primarily been about women’s rights.
Plenty of people call North Korea the DPRK as that’s it’s official name, despite being well aware that it’s undemocratic, not a republic not for the people, and only of half of Korea, even in the same sentence as condemning it for not being the things it claims to be. What you’re saying is effectively equivalent to saying anyone in favour of democracy is evil on the grounds that North Korea labels itself as democratic, and is a bad place.
Except the DPRK is a self-given name of an out-and-out fascist country, not a name given to it by other democracies for still standing by the essentials of democratic republics. This is unlike TERFs, where they’re still considered feminists (hence the name) since they still stand by the essentials of the movement (ie more rights for women).
Look, it doesn’t matter what you want the movement to be about or what you think TERFs are. The reality is that TERF isn’t a self-given label, radical feminist isn’t a self-given label, and more than a few notable individuals in the feminist movement (a movement that, at its core, is about womens’ rights) are misandrist. This is a reality that, no matter how much you pretend is fake, is still real.
And if feminists spend more time denying this reality than actively changing it, the movement itself won’t change, nor will its general perception.
You’re not going to argue equality away by bringing up the worst people you can think of associated with the movement. There is no substance to arguments based on ad hominem character attacks. I don’t care how transphobic someone is, feminism is about equality for women. There is nothing misandrist about wanting to be equal to men in society. And here is a reality check for you, no one needs to be nice, or have a good public perception, to get human rights. Our rights are supposed to be something you get for being human.
Christ can you not understand that most feminists fundamentally disagree with TERFs? I don’t know why you are so insistant to lump them with actual feminist. Maybe consider listening to feminists, like me, instead of perpetually mansplaining about what feminists are.
It’s not a ‘general perception’ that all feminists are TERFs. It’s what your perception and the perceptions of other anti-feminists. Hell most normal men, who are feminists with or without labels, don’t share your perception. You seem to have this warped perception that all feminists are out to get you and hate on men, when the reality is so far from the radicalized scheme that you think it is. People like you perceive the existance of feminism as an attack on you. It’s not. It’s not even about you, because you don’t seem to care about men’s issues either. It’s about everyone else who wants to lift men and women above the patriarchy.
Wow, didn’t take you long to get personal with your replies huh. Keep blaming the terrible image of the feminist movement on ‘misogynists’ all you want, but it’s misandrists, TERFs and other bigots in the movement who give it a bad name, as well as the people who only respond to criticism of the movement itself with deflection, accusations and ad hominem.
Anyway, it’s not like I care anymore what the image of the feminist movement is; I stopped associating with it ages ago. Do with it what you will.
Again, this whole thread was about the image of the movement, and the culpability of misandrist feminists in painting an image of feminists as ‘women who hate men’.
I am the feminist movement. You are speaking it right now. This is the image of feminism. If you don’t like what you see, don’t shuffle around and just admit that you are an anti-feminist.
The feminist movement isn’t some men-hating caricature you see on Fox news. It’s normal people caring about those who suffer from the patriarchy, men and women alike. It’s people over at Men’s Liberation community. It’s donating to the local women’s shelter because over 90% of SA victims are female. It’s donating to men’s suicide prevention charities because over 80% of deaths are from men. It’s understanding that the men’s mental health crisis is a consequence of patriarchal structures. It’s understanding the pervasiveness of systemic oppression on women’s lives. It’s learning to empathize with the different but real struggles that the other genders face.
If you simply ‘don’t care anymore’ because you are concerned about image, that’s not good enough. You should care. And that starts with embracing the idea that feminism isn’t a dirty word, and it’s not defined by extremists. It’s 2023 and it’s what everybody should strive for ffs.
Look, you go ahead and keep on pretending that the feminist movement is perfect and that all the bigots are ‘not true feminists’. Keep acting like feminism is only all the good things, and it wasn’t feminists who had battered men’s shelters shut down, that TERFs aren’t ‘real feminists’. Keep pretending that anyone who criticizes feminism is actually just ‘anti-feminism’. In the end, it won’t change what the image of the movement is, nor will it change the people behind that image.
You’re right, it’s not a self-given label, and that’s why when people decided that these people are actually not welcomed in feminist spaces, they changed the label to FART (Feminism-Appropriating Reactionary Transphobes).
Feminism, as defined by the majority of the movement, is about equality and intersectionality. If you hold exclusionary views you’re not part of the movement, you’re only appropriating the word.
Again, that’s a nice sentiment but it doesn’t change the reality that ‘FART’ is a joke term used by some feminists; the vast majority still call them TERFs, because the feminist movement has historically cared far more about the issues of biological women.
If anything, it’s the people who call feminism a movement for ‘equality and intersectionality’ who’re appropriating a term for a movement that, at its core, has primarily been about women’s rights.
Plenty of people call North Korea the DPRK as that’s it’s official name, despite being well aware that it’s undemocratic, not a republic not for the people, and only of half of Korea, even in the same sentence as condemning it for not being the things it claims to be. What you’re saying is effectively equivalent to saying anyone in favour of democracy is evil on the grounds that North Korea labels itself as democratic, and is a bad place.
Except the DPRK is a self-given name of an out-and-out fascist country, not a name given to it by other democracies for still standing by the essentials of democratic republics. This is unlike TERFs, where they’re still considered feminists (hence the name) since they still stand by the essentials of the movement (ie more rights for women).
Terf is their self identified label. I think “feminism appropriating reactionary transphobes” is a more accurate label.
TERF isn’t a self-identification label though, it was given to them.