are people and don’t deserve to be presumed guilty of Crimes Against The Fediverse for exploring it with any particular tool.
If they would like to explore, they are free to use any of the many tools not built by a shitty company with shitty intentions and many, many, many shitty users.
I would counter that Meta has used their “tool” to in essence to support a genocide and that makes them untrustworthy.
As for having open standards with no gatekeepers… that point is a false equivalency. We have open standard like encryption, but that doesn’t mean one should go post their private ssh keys online. There are bad actors in this world and Meta Inc is one of them.
We agree that Meta Inc. has no moral scruples and buckets of money. Where we disagree is that I think that not only does the corporation have no moral scruples, I think they actively use their lack of morality to snuff out competition using what ever means possible and then shape opinion to make a profit. If Threads were just a client like Memmy, Jerboa, or Tusky it would be different, but it’s not.
Comparing to “homesteading” is an interesting choice. Perhaps to you the term bears connotations of freedom, community, adventure, creativity or nostalgia. But a more comprehensive view would be that the state used extreme violence to appropriate land and natural resources from an existing population. Homesteading was the subsequent privatization of the nominally public lands. It was privatized specifically into the hands of people who it was thought would be loyal and suitable, if sometimes remote, subjects of the state. Their loyalty was reinforced by arranging things so that the settlers were perpetually engaged in relationships of domination either directly or implicitly, with the prior residents of the land and other conquered people.
I guess I am wondering… to follow your analogy… you think you/we are the settlers in this situation? Seems like Meta is the state/military. Their users are the homesteaders and the libre community is the historic but already weakened pre existing communities.
Just like so called “pioneers”, meta users as people can have all kinds of good intentions at the outset however the situation is one of inherent tensions. The territory is vast and we are in a relatively weakened position. Therefor, we unable to defend it sufficiently to prevent incursions, even if we were all in agreement about wanting to. The conquering institutions will enter and they will bring people along under various pretenses, with messaging and structures that favor the extension of their power. Some settlers will defect but most will just try to make it work in the context they find themselves— like people always do. Structurally, we are in conflict even though as individuals I don’t think anyone bears particular ill will towards the other. And in both the historical and contemporary situations, the groups are not completely distinct and clear cut. Humans instantly become intertwined with one another when the opportunity arises so there is plenty of intermingling and relationships.
However if the sight of platoons and caravans approaching in the distance leads to apprehension, the ominous feeling is justified. We must represent our own interests, and what are arguably the broader interests of humanity, using tactics from diplomacy to guerilla. We should be vigilant in self defense and not wait til its too late to engage whatever potentially effective means are available to us. I am not sure what those are.
(In case it is not clear, I hope I am not read as flippantly comparing anything happening to lemmy as equivalent to the horrors of genocide. This situations has the violence dial turned waaaaay down. However there are certain narrative elements that bear a similarity so I wanted to expand upon the analogy to colonization as a positive thing at all, and one that we are on the winning side of.)
But it still means there are people potentially joining us that could be really cool, really interesting, really nice to have as part of our circle.
And when they are ready to explore, those people can use the many available tools not built by shitty corporations with shitty intentions and many, many, many shitty users.
If you block all of Meta just because they’re Meta, not only do you punish countless potential valued contributors who have done no wrong,
Bullshit. There’s no “punishment” whatsoever. Those users are free to open accounts on fediverse servers at any time.
you also embolden Meta to engage with the Fediverse in less legitimate, more underhanded ways.
You mean like anointing a few heads of big instances as representatives of fedi and trying to get them to sign NDAs? Shit like that?
Let’s focus on building affirmatively and consciously the community we want
This is literally the point of pre-emptive blocking. Meta is an existential threat to the quality of this place, period point blank.
People, individual people, built Fedi out of nothing. It’s our party, we quite like it, and we can pre-disinvite entities with an enormous track record of shitty behavior whenever we want.
If you want to interact with such entities and the typical user that comes with, by all means, find servers that federate. It will drive a netsplit, and that sucks, but it’s also working as intended.
I just hope SDF is on the right side of the split. Fuck Facebook and every single thing they stand for.
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This feels a little bit like a “corporations are people” spin, intended or not. But I don’t think that’s benefited society all that much, in past.
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If they would like to explore, they are free to use any of the many tools not built by a shitty company with shitty intentions and many, many, many shitty users.
I would counter that Meta has used their “tool” to in essence to support a genocide and that makes them untrustworthy.
As for having open standards with no gatekeepers… that point is a false equivalency. We have open standard like encryption, but that doesn’t mean one should go post their private ssh keys online. There are bad actors in this world and Meta Inc is one of them.
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Meta is not a person and Meta as a corporation (and the people who run it) are complicit in war crimes.
As for their users (which I am not conflating with Meta, the corporate entity), there is nothing stopping them from creating a Lemmy account.
Again, Meta is not a person and Meta is not it’s users. There is nothing wrong with many of the people who use Meta products.
Edited: I apologize, I removed part of the comment that was on retrospect, uncalled for.
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My take is that it’s a Trojan horse meant to handle a multiple potential competitors, the Fediverse being one of them. Meta tries to either take over or kill competitors: they purchased Instagram for fear of competing with it; they purchased Whatsapp; they considered purchasing TikTok and then when they didn’t, they instead funded the push to malign it and ban it. This is all in addition to all the other things they’ve done (like manipulating teens’ emotional states without their or their parents’ consent, building shadow profiles for non-Facebook users, using a free data usage counter as a Trojan horse to figure out what apps people were using and then purchase one of the popular ones… WhatsApp, and the previously mentioned alleged warcrimes to name a few).
We agree that Meta Inc. has no moral scruples and buckets of money. Where we disagree is that I think that not only does the corporation have no moral scruples, I think they actively use their lack of morality to snuff out competition using what ever means possible and then shape opinion to make a profit. If Threads were just a client like Memmy, Jerboa, or Tusky it would be different, but it’s not.
Edit: added a clause changed some formatting.
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Comparing to “homesteading” is an interesting choice. Perhaps to you the term bears connotations of freedom, community, adventure, creativity or nostalgia. But a more comprehensive view would be that the state used extreme violence to appropriate land and natural resources from an existing population. Homesteading was the subsequent privatization of the nominally public lands. It was privatized specifically into the hands of people who it was thought would be loyal and suitable, if sometimes remote, subjects of the state. Their loyalty was reinforced by arranging things so that the settlers were perpetually engaged in relationships of domination either directly or implicitly, with the prior residents of the land and other conquered people.
I guess I am wondering… to follow your analogy… you think you/we are the settlers in this situation? Seems like Meta is the state/military. Their users are the homesteaders and the libre community is the historic but already weakened pre existing communities.
Just like so called “pioneers”, meta users as people can have all kinds of good intentions at the outset however the situation is one of inherent tensions. The territory is vast and we are in a relatively weakened position. Therefor, we unable to defend it sufficiently to prevent incursions, even if we were all in agreement about wanting to. The conquering institutions will enter and they will bring people along under various pretenses, with messaging and structures that favor the extension of their power. Some settlers will defect but most will just try to make it work in the context they find themselves— like people always do. Structurally, we are in conflict even though as individuals I don’t think anyone bears particular ill will towards the other. And in both the historical and contemporary situations, the groups are not completely distinct and clear cut. Humans instantly become intertwined with one another when the opportunity arises so there is plenty of intermingling and relationships.
However if the sight of platoons and caravans approaching in the distance leads to apprehension, the ominous feeling is justified. We must represent our own interests, and what are arguably the broader interests of humanity, using tactics from diplomacy to guerilla. We should be vigilant in self defense and not wait til its too late to engage whatever potentially effective means are available to us. I am not sure what those are.
(In case it is not clear, I hope I am not read as flippantly comparing anything happening to lemmy as equivalent to the horrors of genocide. This situations has the violence dial turned waaaaay down. However there are certain narrative elements that bear a similarity so I wanted to expand upon the analogy to colonization as a positive thing at all, and one that we are on the winning side of.)
And when they are ready to explore, those people can use the many available tools not built by shitty corporations with shitty intentions and many, many, many shitty users.
There’s being an optimist, and there’s being a pollyanna.
Your optimism about Meta is badly misplaced.
Bullshit. There’s no “punishment” whatsoever. Those users are free to open accounts on fediverse servers at any time.
You mean like anointing a few heads of big instances as representatives of fedi and trying to get them to sign NDAs? Shit like that?
This is literally the point of pre-emptive blocking. Meta is an existential threat to the quality of this place, period point blank.
People, individual people, built Fedi out of nothing. It’s our party, we quite like it, and we can pre-disinvite entities with an enormous track record of shitty behavior whenever we want.
If you want to interact with such entities and the typical user that comes with, by all means, find servers that federate. It will drive a netsplit, and that sucks, but it’s also working as intended.
I just hope SDF is on the right side of the split. Fuck Facebook and every single thing they stand for.
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